mash_slash | This has gone on long enough.

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discussion & episode reactions

This has gone on long enough.

Can I just say that you people are being incredible snobs?

-FIRST someone flames someone else for not writing what they consider a "correct" fanfic.

Look, maybe she just wanted to write something for fun, huh? Is that so hard to understand? Correct me if I'm wrong, but this entire thing (M*A*S*H slash) is entirely far fetched to begin with. People write fan fiction as a hobby, as a way to let loose! You know, have a little fun. Though I'm not sure you hard noses even know what fun is, judging from these past few days.

-SECOND the author is understandably upset, because whoever commented on her fic was a great big snob. Author decides to take fics off of oppressive community. And all of a sudden people decide that she is over reacting.

Excuse me, but I think the flamer was overreacting. If the author wants to leave, so what? Who’re you people to judge?

-THIRD some snob decides to write an entire entry detailing the "correct" way to write fanfic. And of course give a little spiel about "taking the newbies under their wings." Who died and made you "oldies" Queen Bitch?

Woah now Professor, heavens forfend the little students decide to do something outside of what you consider to be the "right" way.

To top it all off, you people turn around and laugh over the entire thing, making the author look bad. Like she was the one who was being childish. Personally, I think everyone else was being childish.

You all should be ashamed of yourselves.

I honestly don’t care what you people think of me for writing this. I needed to say it. I’ve seen this exact same thing happen in many other communities. Somehow I thought this comm. would be better.

*shrugs* Obviously I was wrong.

Some people write fanfic just for fun. So what? What’s wrong with breaking characterization for the sake of creating a light, fluffy story?
I don’t see the harm.

By the way, Author, don’t get mad at me for writing this. I’m fairly sure I’ll have enough angry villagers with torches and pitchforks at my door within minutes of posting this. I’m not doing this to feel better about myself, like I’m some martyr for the under dog. I’m doing this because I believe in standing up for what one believes in.

And I know you people are most likely going to comment with a lot of “Calm down, it’s all in good fun.” Or, “Jesus, cool it, it’s no big deal.” But let me just tell you that I’ve heard it all, and I’m not going to be shut up that easily.

And btw, I read her fic. And I for one, thought it was very well written, very hot, and very “in character.”

Seriously, guys. Give us some breathing room. Don’t nit pick over every little detail. Don’t be a brat just because *gasp* someone wrote Hawkeye slightly out of character. Have a little fun, please.

And maybe I'm not as "eloquent" as some other people, but I don't really care. Whatever you guys wanna say against me, say it. Go on, hit me with your best shot.

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1. We all write fanfic for fun. That's a given. None of us are making any money off of it because that'd be infringing on copyright. Some people, like myself, however, take pride in everything they write, fanfiction, original fiction, papers, essays, whatever. They want it to be as good as it can be. If someone wants to post a fic full of errors or poor characterization, they can be my guest -- but don't expect everyone to love it.

2. I've talked to the author in question via email. She admits that she overreacted some. She also admits that, when someone actually gave her good constructive criticism, she flew off the handle too quickly instead of calming down and responding more sanely. Personally, my entire bone of contention with her was that she was claiming to be bashed when in fact she instigated a lot of it. I'm past it, though. If she wants to leave, she's free to leave, of course. I just think it's unfortunate because she had some great potential.

3. I just read the post in question and while it may come across as somewhat condescending, she does make some very good points. And the author you’re defending has actually commented on the story in agreement with part of it. Actually, now that she seems to have calmed down, she is acting very reasonable. She seems to realize that she made some mistakes (And yes, I will admit, the criticisms on some of her stories were harsh. I just didn’t see it as a flame. A flame is a personal attack. A comment basically ripping a story to shreds, while needlessly vitriolic, is technically not a flame. It does make taking the criticism to heart harder, though, I agree.) so I’m confused. What is the point of this post? The person you’re defending seems to be over it. That’s bizarre.

I’ll tell you the same thing I told her: we’re spoiled. We’re used to exceptional writers who are gods at characterization, and when we see people blatantly disregarding it, we get annoyed more easily because we’re so used to awesome stories.

Incidentally, it seems as all this wank has woken up the fandom a little bit. That is so ironic.

*shrugs* I just think that people need to lighten up some. Hell, we're not writing to be published! Maybe I have a different view of fandoms than you (God forbid), what's wrong with that? I think that fandoms are for fun. You think it's a little more serious than that.

You might think I'm some teeny-bopper "newbie" that doesn't respect the sanctity of fandom. I might think you're a stuffy old fashioned person who's too stuck in their ways.

(You say tomota, I say tomato, let's call the whole thing off!)

Also, in a fandom like M*A*S*H, I just thought people would be a little more light hearted and less serious about shit like this.

And besides, as I said before, I'm not doing this for her. I'm doing it for me. Ehm-ee, ME.

*grins* Oh, I've been known to shake things up a little bit here and there.

Maybe not for fanfiction, but I certainly (along with many others in this fandom) do want to become published writer some day. Fanfiction is just a way to practice writing so we can become better.

And fandom is for fun. But why does that mean that you have to write crappy fic for it? Can't it be fun with good fic? Doesn't that make it actually more fun?

I have to say, my Republican teacher would probably laugh for a solid five minutes at the thought of his favorite liberal feminist being called old fashioned. That made my day, actually. Thanks for that.

It's not that we're so serious, we just want the fic to be good. OOC fic is rarely good. I understand that it was light-hearted and just-for-fun, but it could be light-hearted and just-for-fun and stay in character, too, right?

*nods* I can appreaciate that. And I agree.

Well, ya see...in my opinion at least, it was a good fic. And many other people over yonder at the mash slash mailing list agree.

Ahahaha don't get me started on liberal feminists. I don't wanna start a political debate, but I honestly don't think that liberals are any more open minded than anyone else. I mean, srsly. You probably don't agree with your Republican teacher all the time, right? And you probably voice your opinion, right? Well, you also probably think that your way is the right and only way to go...just like your teacher probably thinks the same of their ideas. I'm not saying this is you, I'm just working from experience.

*smirks* And you're welcome.

I just don't understand why you're only nitpicking hers, though. I've read more than a few OOC fics here (including my own) and haven't seen anyone call out those authors. Why go regular army on our asses all of a sudden?

Like I told the author, the yahoo mailing lists are not renowned for their honest criticism. I've belonged to a fair few, and I've found that the majority of them are not so amazing.

You probably don't agree with your Republican teacher all the time, right? And you probably voice your opinion, right?

We agree on some things. He's fairly moderate (against the death penalty, for stricter gun control, genuinely pro-life as opposed to pro-birth) but yes, I voice my opinion. Which, actually, he loves. He appreciates that I have differing viewpoints. We get into discussions all the time.

Well, you also probably think that your way is the right and only way to go...just like your teacher probably thinks the same of their ideas.

My teacher is probably one of the most open-minded people I've met. While he will disagree with someone, he always, always, always will listen to another's point of view. And I offer him the same respect, even when I disagree. Of course we think that our views are more right than the other, but that's simply because they're our views. In certain cases, I can see both sides, and I will retain that my belief is more correct simply because it is my belief, though I will think the other side has validity. That's the point of opinions. However, there are certain issues I have (gay marriage/rights, for instance) where I will freely admit that I am stubborn and will not budge on. Yes, I think my view on that is the right way because that's what history tells me -- that people are equal and deserve the same rights as one another. Some things just are right or wrong. I think most of us could agree that things such as pedophilia and rape are wrong, right? Just because a subject is more debatable than another doesn't mean that there isn't a right answer, y'know? And thinking you're right, as long as you're articulate and intelligent enough to back it up with more than "because I say so!" doesn't make you close-minded. It makes you human.

I did not leave any crit on her stories because I did not get a chance to read them in detail. I had only skimmed them and glanced at the comments, intending to return later and go in depth. However, now that they're deleted, I've lost this opportunity. I got involved when she started saying she'd been bashed when she really hadn't, at least as far as I see bashing. She'd gotten some out-of-line comments, for sure, but she had also been out of line, herself.

Like I told the author, the yahoo mailing lists are not renowned for their honest criticism. I've belonged to a fair few, and I've found that the majority of them are not so amazing.

*nods* Well, the mash slash mailing list is the only group I've ever belonged to. Not to mention the first. So yeah, you're most likely correct.

I hate to sound all "Uhhh...yeah that is what I meant all along!!" but I also agree with the debating stuff. Like, I respect the fact that people have different opions and argue about it and, if they're lucky, listen to eachother. I believe in listening to other people's ideas, sure I do. I mean, it's gotten harder since I was really young and had a very open mind. But I think that I still have a pretty open mind, I'm just stubborn as a mule. But anyway, hopefully I've come accross as open minded throughout this entire "wank" fest. It may not be noticeable (I also respect the fact that people aren't mind readers) but I have been listening to what people have to say.

I'd also just like to say that it seems like a lot of people think I'm only mad about the "flaming" shit. Um. It might've come accross like that, but I assure you, that wasn't my original intent. I was just getting fed up with seeing people who think that their way is the right and only way to go. And that it is their "rightful duty" to take the poor, poor youngsters "under their wings." I've seen it happen way too often at my high school, so yeah, I probably am taking the whole thing a little too personally. But as I said before, I'm doing this for no one else but me (and maybe all the other "newbies"). And hey, there's only so much patronizing bullshit a person can take.

Oh, and that *points to subject line* is just a joke that my friend made about her debating techniques. No harm intended.

I was just getting fed up with seeing people who think that their way is the right and only way to go.

See, that wasn't what we were thinking at all. We love creativity and new ideas, but we consider characterization to be a basic thing. And well, I guess we get annoyed when it appears as though someone is just saying, "Yeah, screw that, I'll do what I want."

And that it is their "rightful duty" to take the poor, poor youngsters "under their wings."

Yeah, I'll concede that did sound somewhat patronizing. I've never been fond of the word 'newbie' because of the negative connotations, simply because, well, we've all been new to something. I think what she meant was to offer tips, explain how this comm works, since, obv, if they're new, they're going to know less about the normal way things work. I don't think 'newbie' should be generally a negative word, but that's how it comes across.

Haha, yeah, I figured that it was a joke. =D

LOL at the subject line...because I say stuff like that to my hubby almost every day.

But I mean it ;)

>>And well, I guess we get annoyed when it appears as though someone is just saying, "Yeah, screw that, I'll do what I want."<<

And I'm so glad that this issue has now been cleared up (at least with some of the 'oldsters'.). I never intended for my stuff to come across that way. Believe me. I'm not that much of a bitch...contrary to popular belief ;)

Ehehehe...that was a quote that my friend came up with when we were discussing her debating skills. I'm fairly sure it's going to make the rounds of LJ rather quickly, as I have used it numerous times.

I actually really understand why that would annoy them. It's probably about as annoying and pretensious to them as they seemed to me. At the same time, I really like when people are "overly ambitious" *shrugs* It shows passion and defiance. But that's just me.

>>Some people, like myself, however, take pride in everything they write, fanfiction, original fiction, papers, essays, whatever. They want it to be as good as it can be. If someone wants to post a fic full of errors or poor characterization, they can be my guest -- but don't expect everyone to love it.<<

I do take pride in my work. Even in the crappy stuff. You want to know why? Because I put some effort into something other than sitting on my over-sized-really-could-use-some-time-at-the-gym butt watching more Oprah.

>>I've talked to the author in question via email. She admits that she overreacted some. She also admits that, when someone actually gave her good constructive criticism, she flew off the handle too quickly instead of calming down and responding more sanely. Personally, my entire bone of contention with her was that she was claiming to be bashed when in fact she instigated a lot of it.<<

Yes, we have talked via email. And yes, I did overreact a bit to some of the stuff. I wouldn't say that any of it was "good" constructive crit...it was useful, but still a bit harsh. Some was borderline mean. I didn't instigate...I reacted poorly and I regret it.

>>If she wants to leave, she's free to leave, of course. I just think it's unfortunate because she had some great potential.<<

I obviously haven't left. I may post a fic again, but it will never ever be something funny. It will be my angsty stuff. Thank you though for the compliment. The old fics will be on mash_fic...so feel free to go there and read them if you choose.

>>What is the point of this post? The person you’re defending seems to be over it.<<

I am definitely not over it. I am now completely terrified and intimidated to post my fanfiction anywhere..except for the yahoo group. I'm even scared to post it on mash_fic. So, no...I am not over it. I'm just more excepting of it.

And if you don't mind me asking...what is "wank"? I am clueless here.

And if you don't mind me asking...what is "wank"? I am clueless here.

Shit. Worthless crap no one should care about.

Yeah, well, I do care about it.

Wank is a bitchfest, essentially.

Thank you. I was confused. Around this house...wank means something, uh, different. And although I knew you didn't mean *that*...I was still befuddled.

Well fine then *bitches*

I obviously haven't left. I may post a fic again, but it will never ever be something funny. It will be my angsty stuff. Thank you though for the compliment. The old fics will be on mash_fic...so feel free to go there and read them if you choose.

Thank you. I like your fics, and got a little worried when you said you'd be taking them off : /

I am definitely not over it. I am now completely terrified and intimidated to post my fanfiction anywhere..except for the yahoo group. I'm even scared to post it on mash_fic. So, no...I am not over it. I'm just more excepting of it.

Ah, sorry. You seemed as though you had gotten over it some.

And don't be intimidated. Yes, I know that the crit was harsh. I would be upset if I got it, too. But what I meant by instigate was you seemed to have an attitude from the beginning, and your nasty comments in response to the genuine crit is probably what led to more of the acerbic ones in answer.

The problem is that you came from posting in a yahoo group where feedback is rarely honest. Rarely. I belong to a few of them and it seems like OOC fic is the norm, and so it's not often called out. Here, at LJ, though, they tend to be more apt to give criticism.

Wank is fighting/"drama".

P.S. You mentioned once that you write for the CSI fandom? Which pairing(s)?

>>And don't be intimidated.<<

I am.

>>Yes, I know that the crit was harsh. I would be upset if I got it, too. But what I meant by instigate was you seemed to have an attitude from the beginning,<<

I still don't understand how I had an attitude from the beginning. Someone said it was because I said that "I gave BJ a name, just because I wanted to."? I don't think that's having an attitude. And if I'm remembering right, I actually said that I had read another fic where the author had named him "Benjamin" and so I was stealing her idea. And I know that I should never have said the stuff about "no beta...yadda yadda yadda." But I don't think that is any indication that I had an attitude. I was just stating a fact that if there were huge errors (which after rereading most of my fics, there weren't)...it was my fault.

>>The problem is that you came from posting in a yahoo group where feedback is rarely honest. Rarely.<<

I will politely disagree with you here. *I* feedback on yahoo groups for many fandoms...Lost, Brokeback Mountain, CSI, X-Files, Oz, Mash...just to name a few. And my feedback is always honest...but never mean or harsh. If something needs to be fixed, I point it out.

Anyway, in the CSI fandom...I only write Gil and Cath. I've tried dabbling in (oooo...that sounds sorta naughty) Nick/Sara and Cath/Warrick, but they never quite came out right.

Well... uhm, changing a main character's name just because you feel like it does come across as though you've got an attitude. I know you don't feel like naming him Benjamin was a big deal, but to me it'd be like taking Warrick and saying, "Y'know, I don't like the name Warrick. He's Fred, now." It sounds arrogant.

I'm sure your feedback is honest. However, that's more an exception than a rule, I'm afraid. Either that or you're in better yahoo groups than I am. ^_-

Ahh, okay. I write mostly slash in CSI, except for Cath/Warrick. Though I have been known to write the occasional Gil/Sara or Greg/Sara ficlet.

I most definitely didn't intend for it to seem that way. *shrug* I just wanted to give him a name. And you know...I really don't like Warrick's name. But it really chaps my a$$ when someone calls him "Rick". It gives me the willies.

You write Cath/Warrick? They are my second favorite pairing. I've got Cath down pat, but he just doesn't speak to me. I can write teeny tiny bits of Warrick here or there, just not an entire fic around him.

Haha, yeah, 'Rick is the weirdest nickname. It'd be like calling Catherine, 'Therine, or something.

I do. I write anything in CSI, though. I've written Grissom/House (from House M.D.) and Greg/Ecklie. (I like Ecklie. I'm weird, I know. I've accepted it.) I write angsty Gil/Sara sometimes and fluffy Nick/Hodges or Greg/Hodges. The only pairing I don't really like at all is Nick/Sara. They just seem too much siblings.

http://community.livejournal.com/mash_fic/7028.html#cutid1

Here's the link to the one fic I reposted to mash_fic. It's what I consider to be one of my better ones. I may regret it, but there you go.

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This has gone on long enough.

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I love the smell of sarcasm in the morning...

Re: I love the smell of sarcasm in the morning...

YOU ARE WRONG BECAUSE THAT IS STUPID. NO. YOU SHUT THE FUCK UP OK.

Re: YOU ARE WRONG BECAUSE THAT IS STUPID. NO. YOU SHUT THE FUCK UP OK.

Re: YOU ARE WRONG BECAUSE THAT IS STUPID. NO. YOU SHUT THE FUCK UP OK.

I do try.

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Here you go!